Here's the letter

[scyllacat]

Ok, you all win. I don't think he INTENDED to be an asshole.

I just don't believe that he's not BEING an asshole. Because to tell a flaming pagan that this is how God intended, then that's "You're doing it Wrong," to my way of looking at it.

As it turns out, that IS the only thing he said about it.

I think I'll write him back, as soon as I can keep from snarking.

So here it is:

You're right, not much in common at all except for the adoption part.

I've always known I'm adopted... I've never known any different. I believe that's the best way to approach adopted kids on it. I've always been told how special that made me by my parents and especially by my grandparents. I've never thought of it any other way and have never felt any less of a person than anyone else, nor has anyone ever treated me less as a result.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of a role the genetics plays, except for looks, medical history and maybe some mannerisms, such has how one smiles etc. I do thank my biological mother for giving me up and giving me the life I have. Obviously she felt she could not do the same.

Other than that, I really think environmental factors such as your parents, and life experiences make up the bulk of your personality. I really believe kids deserve 2 loving parents (mom and dad the way God intended) and I believe a healthy Christian marriage is the best way to raise kids.

I was lucky enough to have both, and think that WAY outweighed the biological factors in my life on how I turned out.

I hope that helps in your quest for adoption feedback!

Comments

[argh-jim.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the "healthy Christian marriage". So, all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., are incapable I guess.

I semi-agree with one of his more outre points:

[teididh.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say I think kids REQUIRE two loving parents, plenty of single parents raise awesome kids, but as far as deserve? Hell yeah. I think they "deserve" as many loving parents as they can get. Two is, in my mind, a minimum number deserved by the PARENTS, just 'cause doing it alone is that much harder.

Honestly, I think maybe everyone involved deserves maybe three or four loving parents around.More might be nice, too...but three or four spreads the load a bit better than the mere TWO all these Christians seem to think is so optimal. Poly-families FTW!

But somehow I doubt this response, or this form of agreement, would satisfy the Christian in Question.

[lihan161051.livejournal.com]

My $.02:

Telling a random person of unknown religious affiliation that something is "how God intended" is rude, but very few people respect that boundary these days, and it's more noticeable when someone *does* respect it. It's kind of like rude is the baseline and the few who show respect are the ones who tend to stand out as favorable. I wish the situation was better.

Telling a person who is known to be openly pagan that something is "how God intended" is several orders of magnitude more offensive, because that is a deliberate challenge in the form of a social dominance game. That's far more rare, thankfully, but when it happens, it's kind of like being shot at .. sort of a "What the fuck did you just do?" moment. (People who don't follow openly non-Christian religious traditions have a really hard time understanding this from a personal perspective, so this, too, happens way more often than it should.)

So, if he didn't know you're openly pagan, it's possible he might respond to some patient and calm constructive criticism on this, and maybe he'll be a bit more inclined to respect that boundary with others. If he did know, and did it anyway, I doubt even a violent response would shake him up enough to get him to clue into the fact that that's a hard boundary he shouldn't cross.

(And for what it's worth, most openly pagan folks I know don't go far enough in establishing and respecting that boundary, and tend to go into flight/conflict-avoidance mode even when someone steps way over the line. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't respect the rule of "your rights end where mine begin and vice versa" needs to be called on it, every time they cross that line, until they learn. Some never will, but enough might respond to that that it's worth making into a rule ..)

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

Here's my response:

My experience was a lot like yours, but I do have one question:
How do you know what God intended? This opens up quite a can of theological worms for me, and since you brought it up, I have to wonder why.

What I was told is in the science is that we are at least half our genes. And looks, medical history, and mannerisms are not a very small part. That includes ALL the physiological structure of your body and all the chemistry. Not just a tendency to get cancer, but a tendency to get mad. Not just the height of your father, but the kind of girls he liked as well. From what I've seen of how different me and my sister are from each other and our parents, I have to think that it's certainly got a bigger impact than I thought.

It's one of the reasons I really want children. And since I tried the Husband way (and just got out of my third failed attempt), and I am not willing to believe God doesn't intend for me to have a family, then I'm willing to think maybe I'm going about it the wrong way, and should open myself up to a wider variety of understanding.

[nausved.livejournal.com]

Related to a recent conversation I had with someone a few days ago....

I really, really hate the "God intends" mindset. It's probably my #1 pet peeve where religion is concerned--especially when someone responds to the news that your grandmother is suffering severely under cancer with, "Everything happens according to God's plan."

Gee, great. It's great to hear that our minor tragedies here on earth are justified and that our tiny little lives are perfectly disposable, because God is working on some project to which we all just so happen to be a component. Really, thanks. That makes me feel a lot better. I'll go stop being an atheist now, so I can be pleased by the news that my grandmother is lying in bed in her own blood and stool.

(Sorry for the rant.)

[cryo.livejournal.com]

First, I wasn't going to reply, because I -am- an asshole.

Second, I generally ignore any message that has any form of God in it that doesn't suffix with Dammit, preferably with additional fun words.

Third, I know that the whole adopted thing very personally, though I myself wasn't technically adopted, but I have to do deal with 'biological' parentage issues and don't want that to sway my response.

So, with those things in mind, I would like to point out that

A) While I think his intent may have been in a positive manner, the obliviousness of science vs religion seems to have completely bypassed him. You are not allowed to use both, period.

B) You're upset over the as God intended, based on your personal views of 'religion', but completely missed the wonderful anti-gay remark prefixing it, even though his snark was a quantification of the statement in parenthesis. I find that a double religious fubar, and deserving of not only a kick in the face, but only after prying his head out of his ass with a crowbar.

C) It's a cop-out to claim that he or anyone could understand what situation and conditions being given up for adoption may have instilled. What happens if the child was removed because of social services coming up with some bogus reason to place the child elsewhere? There are too many variables in that statement that the mother could not have given him the 'same'.

D) nature vs. nurture, here we go again... you have the best genes in the world, and a shitty environment that causes you be a rapist and murder. You can have the worst genes and a great environment and end up being Stephen Hawking. Rinse, mix thoroughly, Repeat.

I'm glad he feels that adopted children need to be raised in an xtian marriage... but that doesn't explain the success (and failure) of single parenting... nor the success (and failure) of [xtian] marriages. Nor, does it take into account what the effect is on the [adopted] child[ren].

so... EPIC FAIL on his part, imho.

[skylarblue.livejournal.com]

Asshole or not, I think that, in reading this, that he was expressing his opinion. I mean, not everyone has the same ideals as most of the people I know. Meaning that single, gay, married, happily unmarried for umpteen years, whatever, and you're still cool and perfectly capable of raising a child. Some people believe that it takes 2 (naturally or otherwise, it biologically does) parents to raise a child.

I can say, that from my own experience, that it truly takes a village to raise a child and you'll have that. A large extended family, whether related or not, is an excellent environment in which to raise a child.

I have no idea how "God intended." Who's to say what God intended? Has anyone actually had a conversation with the guy? SHEESH.

[ranmasal.livejournal.com]

lots of people made reference to "It was as god intended" and "Gods Will" in this thread...

Still love the line from Constantine "God's a kid with an ant farm lady... he's not planning anything"