Here's the letter

[scyllacat]

Ok, you all win. I don't think he INTENDED to be an asshole.

I just don't believe that he's not BEING an asshole. Because to tell a flaming pagan that this is how God intended, then that's "You're doing it Wrong," to my way of looking at it.

As it turns out, that IS the only thing he said about it.

I think I'll write him back, as soon as I can keep from snarking.

So here it is:

You're right, not much in common at all except for the adoption part.

I've always known I'm adopted... I've never known any different. I believe that's the best way to approach adopted kids on it. I've always been told how special that made me by my parents and especially by my grandparents. I've never thought of it any other way and have never felt any less of a person than anyone else, nor has anyone ever treated me less as a result.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of a role the genetics plays, except for looks, medical history and maybe some mannerisms, such has how one smiles etc. I do thank my biological mother for giving me up and giving me the life I have. Obviously she felt she could not do the same.

Other than that, I really think environmental factors such as your parents, and life experiences make up the bulk of your personality. I really believe kids deserve 2 loving parents (mom and dad the way God intended) and I believe a healthy Christian marriage is the best way to raise kids.

I was lucky enough to have both, and think that WAY outweighed the biological factors in my life on how I turned out.

I hope that helps in your quest for adoption feedback!

Comments

[argh-jim.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the "healthy Christian marriage". So, all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., are incapable I guess.

Let's share

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

...and Atheists in particular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T35_vQms4Ck

Ok, it's not about marriage. But that's where I am today. With the crackpots.

Re: Let's share

[argh-jim.livejournal.com]

Somedays, I think that's all there are....

I semi-agree with one of his more outre points:

[teididh.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say I think kids REQUIRE two loving parents, plenty of single parents raise awesome kids, but as far as deserve? Hell yeah. I think they "deserve" as many loving parents as they can get. Two is, in my mind, a minimum number deserved by the PARENTS, just 'cause doing it alone is that much harder.

Honestly, I think maybe everyone involved deserves maybe three or four loving parents around.More might be nice, too...but three or four spreads the load a bit better than the mere TWO all these Christians seem to think is so optimal. Poly-families FTW!

But somehow I doubt this response, or this form of agreement, would satisfy the Christian in Question.

Re: I semi-agree with one of his more outre points:

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you. Adopt me? ;)

Re: I semi-agree with one of his more outre points:

[teididh.livejournal.com]

...

well, that could get creepy fast...

Re: I semi-agree with one of his more outre points:

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

LOL. Wow. No, I didn't think of it that way.... I'm not into age-play and you guys are too sexy to give up. :)

[lihan161051.livejournal.com]

My $.02:

Telling a random person of unknown religious affiliation that something is "how God intended" is rude, but very few people respect that boundary these days, and it's more noticeable when someone *does* respect it. It's kind of like rude is the baseline and the few who show respect are the ones who tend to stand out as favorable. I wish the situation was better.

Telling a person who is known to be openly pagan that something is "how God intended" is several orders of magnitude more offensive, because that is a deliberate challenge in the form of a social dominance game. That's far more rare, thankfully, but when it happens, it's kind of like being shot at .. sort of a "What the fuck did you just do?" moment. (People who don't follow openly non-Christian religious traditions have a really hard time understanding this from a personal perspective, so this, too, happens way more often than it should.)

So, if he didn't know you're openly pagan, it's possible he might respond to some patient and calm constructive criticism on this, and maybe he'll be a bit more inclined to respect that boundary with others. If he did know, and did it anyway, I doubt even a violent response would shake him up enough to get him to clue into the fact that that's a hard boundary he shouldn't cross.

(And for what it's worth, most openly pagan folks I know don't go far enough in establishing and respecting that boundary, and tend to go into flight/conflict-avoidance mode even when someone steps way over the line. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't respect the rule of "your rights end where mine begin and vice versa" needs to be called on it, every time they cross that line, until they learn. Some never will, but enough might respond to that that it's worth making into a rule ..)

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

Here's my response:

My experience was a lot like yours, but I do have one question:
How do you know what God intended? This opens up quite a can of theological worms for me, and since you brought it up, I have to wonder why.

What I was told is in the science is that we are at least half our genes. And looks, medical history, and mannerisms are not a very small part. That includes ALL the physiological structure of your body and all the chemistry. Not just a tendency to get cancer, but a tendency to get mad. Not just the height of your father, but the kind of girls he liked as well. From what I've seen of how different me and my sister are from each other and our parents, I have to think that it's certainly got a bigger impact than I thought.

It's one of the reasons I really want children. And since I tried the Husband way (and just got out of my third failed attempt), and I am not willing to believe God doesn't intend for me to have a family, then I'm willing to think maybe I'm going about it the wrong way, and should open myself up to a wider variety of understanding.

[lihan161051.livejournal.com]

I like your prose considerably more than I like his. (It has some poetic elements to it, most of which will probably be lost on him, but some might stir the parts of his soul that aren't quite dead .. :)

[jackothegreen.livejournal.com]

Presuming religious superiority is always rude and, depending upon the attitude of the offended party, can sometimes get you an interview with your sponsoring deity sooner than you might have wished. Rather like a salesman explaining to the Home Office why their sales pitch 'didn't' work.

As for the other question of genetics: genes like jeans fare best when you don't put them in too hot water too often...;-}

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

This is wonderful. May I quote you?

[jackothegreen.livejournal.com]

Sure, if the aphorism fits, quote it.
Glad to have obliged.

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

Right. I think he's flat wrong in his beliefs about the genetics, but it is what I would expect from a Christian adoptee. No, My GENES don't control me, those came from strangers. I'm going to wrest control from science and give it to God (even though God made the science. Are we confused yet?). I don't know why they don't want the physical world to be what it is, but there you go.

But what I really want to know about religion is Why Did He Bring It Up? Because if I'm really Against him, then I'm the Enemy, and that's hardly a volley of burning coals upon my head to make me pause. If I'm heathen/unconverted, then it's not likely to inspire me to become a Christian, and if I AM a Christian, then it seems like it's meant to shame me.

Like I said, I'm convinced that he read my profile and wrote that (and what's around it) to Contrast with me specifically, but what did he think it would result in? I hope to point out to him more useful tactics for future reference, but I don't think he's going to stay in the conversation long enough to reap the benefits of my wisdom. :)

And the "seizure/Caesar" pun was good, btw.

[teididh.livejournal.com]

Well it could just be that weird, annoying thing that so many Christians are trained to do where they bring up God or Jesus and their purported Will at EVERY available opportunity.

It doesn't matter if they're talking to another Christian about the most mundane of matters, they will be sure to mention that it was as God intended that they woke up that morning/ate oatmeal for breakfast/heard their team won the game last night/whatever...It's like "God" "Jesus" or assorted biblical name-dropping is the Word of the Day or something, and they get extra afterlife points for using a vocabulary word.

Seriously, it's like Pee Wee's Playhouse, except with fundies. Instead of:

"...hat."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

it's:

"...Jesus....as God intended!"
"Amen/Ya got that right/Praise the Lord!"

/end offensive rantiness. (sorry, coffee overdose.)

Off Topic

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

That must be one of the new icons. Bwahahahaa! I love it.

[nausved.livejournal.com]

Related to a recent conversation I had with someone a few days ago....

I really, really hate the "God intends" mindset. It's probably my #1 pet peeve where religion is concerned--especially when someone responds to the news that your grandmother is suffering severely under cancer with, "Everything happens according to God's plan."

Gee, great. It's great to hear that our minor tragedies here on earth are justified and that our tiny little lives are perfectly disposable, because God is working on some project to which we all just so happen to be a component. Really, thanks. That makes me feel a lot better. I'll go stop being an atheist now, so I can be pleased by the news that my grandmother is lying in bed in her own blood and stool.

(Sorry for the rant.)

A hope of comfort...

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

Nah, you go ahead, hon. When I saw that in the nursing home (first job, not quite 18 years old yet), I felt much the same way. Many days, I would sit at the side of the bed of a woman who had had a stroke, crying because of the pain I felt caring for these people who couldn't do for themselves. She could only speak a few words, but she would try to comfort me, and that made it a little better. (But I can still feel those tears stinging my eyes now.)

For the record, I think that it's about detachment. Where the Buddhists tend to detach themselves from the body one way (earthly bodies suffer, don't BE your body), the Christians tend to do it another (God only cares about your soul, and that's what's important). Of course, when you're suffering watching them suffer, it's not easy to start any sort of detachment practice. That sort of peace (even when it's done right) requires long practice with smaller issues. I think that lady in the nursing home, the one I would go to, had that kind of peace. I pray (I wish, I hope, and if wishing can make it so, I hope it does) that your grandmother has some peace for herself that makes this time easier.

This does not change ONE BIT the impotent rage when it seems like someone is telling you that your stuff (or your grandmother's stuff) doesn't matter. And the fact that they're obviously NOT you or your grandmother or your family means they should know better than to say stuff like that to you.

It will get easier as you get older, though. *wry smile* Yeah, I'm turning into an old fart. I didn't want to give up my passion, because I thought I would have to give up caring, but you don't. You just learn to pace your energy better...

You're doing just fine, dear heart.

Re: A hope of comfort...

[nausved.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for your kindness. It has been a rough few weeks.

I'm not sure how you survived working in a nursing home. I can see why that would have been so painful for you.

In a way, I think it would be easier for me to accept my own death than the death of someone I love. It would be very scary, of course, but I think I would feel slightly less helpless. The helplessness is the worst part of losing someone, I think.

IAWTC

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I will keep you and your family in my thoughts. Let me know how you're doing, if you have time.

[cryo.livejournal.com]

First, I wasn't going to reply, because I -am- an asshole.

Second, I generally ignore any message that has any form of God in it that doesn't suffix with Dammit, preferably with additional fun words.

Third, I know that the whole adopted thing very personally, though I myself wasn't technically adopted, but I have to do deal with 'biological' parentage issues and don't want that to sway my response.

So, with those things in mind, I would like to point out that

A) While I think his intent may have been in a positive manner, the obliviousness of science vs religion seems to have completely bypassed him. You are not allowed to use both, period.

B) You're upset over the as God intended, based on your personal views of 'religion', but completely missed the wonderful anti-gay remark prefixing it, even though his snark was a quantification of the statement in parenthesis. I find that a double religious fubar, and deserving of not only a kick in the face, but only after prying his head out of his ass with a crowbar.

C) It's a cop-out to claim that he or anyone could understand what situation and conditions being given up for adoption may have instilled. What happens if the child was removed because of social services coming up with some bogus reason to place the child elsewhere? There are too many variables in that statement that the mother could not have given him the 'same'.

D) nature vs. nurture, here we go again... you have the best genes in the world, and a shitty environment that causes you be a rapist and murder. You can have the worst genes and a great environment and end up being Stephen Hawking. Rinse, mix thoroughly, Repeat.

I'm glad he feels that adopted children need to be raised in an xtian marriage... but that doesn't explain the success (and failure) of single parenting... nor the success (and failure) of [xtian] marriages. Nor, does it take into account what the effect is on the [adopted] child[ren].

so... EPIC FAIL on his part, imho.

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

So you're an asshole. So are many of my friends. It's the ones who don't KNOW they are that I want to kill. :)

Secondly, no, I don't think I missed any of it. It says on my profile (in case you missed it elsewhere) that I'm bi, Wiccan, and ok with being a single mom. I'm sure that he styled that whole bit there just to tell me HOW different he is from me.... the point is, none of it bothered me at all (just his opinion, right?) until he got to the part where God Likes Him Better because of it.

Thirdly, you were able to see and read it more in depth than I could. I've tried to stop myself from raging whenever possible, and sometimes, that means indulging in some avoidance. In short, I don't disagree one bit, I just had a hard time getting it out there.

(Fourthly)... well, except for the genetics thing. Because I was exploring this New Idea (shiny new toy!) that genetics are Bigger Than We Thought... it's like, they're the majority shareholder, see, and your Nurture may be the other one, but scientists are saying (according to this book my friend was reading) it's more like an overlay of family, place, friends, schooling, etc., all competing with each other, while genes just go merrily along, unconflicted, pulling the strings and flipping the switches. I thought that I would like hearing about the experience of someone who was adopted and had blood-related children. But there was nothing new to see here. So I move along.

I AM, however, going to have to read that book. I had no idea it was so controversial.

[skylarblue.livejournal.com]

Asshole or not, I think that, in reading this, that he was expressing his opinion. I mean, not everyone has the same ideals as most of the people I know. Meaning that single, gay, married, happily unmarried for umpteen years, whatever, and you're still cool and perfectly capable of raising a child. Some people believe that it takes 2 (naturally or otherwise, it biologically does) parents to raise a child.

I can say, that from my own experience, that it truly takes a village to raise a child and you'll have that. A large extended family, whether related or not, is an excellent environment in which to raise a child.

I have no idea how "God intended." Who's to say what God intended? Has anyone actually had a conversation with the guy? SHEESH.

[scyllacat.livejournal.com]

yeah, luv, that's what makes it so aggravating. If he hadn't dropped that little phrase in there, I could accept it as his opinion, and actually agree with 85% of it. However, OKC puts us at 40+% enemies, and I don't know anyone that I'm almost HALF enemies with, so I'm assuming there's a reason.

But somewhere in this mess, I posted my reply to him, which I tried to make peaceful and interested, not like I was ready to bite him.

[skylarblue.livejournal.com]

Good for you. Not getting defensive is a good thing. We'll have to see how he responds now. If he tries to convert you, we'll have another session with all the flaming pagans offering their insights.

[ranmasal.livejournal.com]

lots of people made reference to "It was as god intended" and "Gods Will" in this thread...

Still love the line from Constantine "God's a kid with an ant farm lady... he's not planning anything"